Flying Crete - UK

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Kilkis » Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:52 pm

I am not sure what a report about a flight from Zante to Cardiff has got to do with Jeremy Corbyn, the anti-Semitism row in the labour party or a blog about the labour party. The flight story was covered on every news outlet I could find. The "Covidiots" tag came from comments made by one passenger who described how people were behaving on the plane. That particular comment was not covered by all news outlets but it was covered by a wide range including the BBC and the Telegraph, hardly in the Guardian camp.

As for the anti-vax, anti-mask movements etc I think they have a right to think what they want but they do not have the right to kill other people by their actions. When Thomas Hamilton exercised his god given right to take a gun and shoot 16 children in Dunblane I think we all wish the government could have done something to stop him. They can do something to stop people who will not get vaccinated or wear masks from killing other people. Exclude them from society. Do not force anybody to be vaccinated or to wear a mask but if they don't then their children should not be allowed to attend schools where children have been vaccinated, they should not be allowed to shop where people do wear masks or be in any public space. Obviously they should be free to have their own schools where children are not vaccinated or their own shops and other public places where people do not have to wear masks. At least then, after a period of time, there will be far fewer of them.

Warwick

Keltz
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Keltz » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:55 am

Yes this does go a bit off topic so will respond to comments then leave it at that unless anyone wants to start a Civil Liberties thread.

Firstly respect to Clio being an old school journalist, a rare breed these days as the media in the UK is so tightly controlled.

References to being worried and manning the barriers to defend civil liberties is right and nobel but how are you going to do that when your movements are being monitored and you are not allowed to be in a group of more than 9 people. The police can and have already used the new Covid laws to make arrests at an Extinction Rebellion demonstration. The have also used the same powers to stop a demonstration outside the Crown Court in London by a small group of mostly family members who were socially distanced, trying to defend the civil liberties of Julian Assange.

I agree the rules for use of masks are necessary.

A comment was made about when this virus is eradicated. There is no certainty that will ever happen or that other viruses will not appear. If governments tell us the risk is too great then the work being done right now that limits civil liberties and monitor population movement will only increase.

The linked article below articulates this.

The previous link to Jeremy Corbyn article used the Labour debacle as an example and went much further than that to the heart of democracy in the UK. That was the point.

The previous reference to an article in The Guardian and its flawed reporting was one example of corporate UK media that includes the BBC news coverage where selected corporate UK newspaper articles are discussed daily morning and evening using direct quotes from the papers.

Probably best just quote this comment first to reply...”Exclude them from society. Do not force anybody to be vaccinated or to wear a mask but if they don't then their children should not be allowed to attend schools where children have been vaccinated, they should not be allowed to shop where people do wear masks or be in any public space. Obviously they should be free to have their own schools where children are not vaccinated or their own shops and other public places where people do not have to wear masks. At least then, after a period of time, there will be far fewer of them.”...I made a reference to 1930’s fascism in Europe, as a warning about government sponsored marginalisation of sections of the population as we know where that led to with their own method of making sure there were far fewer of ‘them’. So obviously I don’t agree with that method of population control. You clearly do. No comment.

A decent article below titled Coronavirus Could Infect Privacy And Civil Liberties Forever

https://www.forbes.com/sites/simonchand ... 8a6f2b365d

A couple of quotes from the attached article:

“From a technological perspective, the coronavirus pandemic is one massive testbed for surveillance capitalism.”

“Perhaps health is more important than privacy and civil liberties. Obviously, you'd have absolutely no civil liberties, freedoms, or powers if you were deceased. However, the surveillance measures now being imposed on national populations risk permanently altering how much privacy and freedom we have as individuals. And at this early stage in the life of the coronavirus, it's not clear or transparent that the health benefits they provide (as opposed to isolation and testing policies on their own) outweigh the price we'd have to pay in terms of civil liberties.”

“And in conjunction with the move towards mass data surveillance by the state, the rising prominence and power of the FAANGs could end up by squeezing individual privacy and autonomy even further. So if the coronavirus weren't already scary enough, its potential ramifications for privacy and civil liberties make it even scarier.”

Kamisiana
Posts: 496
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Kamisiana » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:20 am

Keltz do you happen to be a fan of David Icke and Piers Corbyn by any chance :?: :roll:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/londo ... demic.html

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Kilkis » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:29 am

There are no rights without responsibility. A parent has the right to send their child to school. With that right goes the responsibility to ensure that in exercising that right you do not do harm to other parents' children. Refusing to vaccinate your child against a disease that could harm other children is not fulfilling that responsibility. Failing to fulfil your responsibility loses you the right in my book. Greece recognises that. There is no law forcing parents to vaccinate their children. There is a law that children who attend school must have an up-to-date vaccination certificate. To me that is reasonable, i.e. it ensures that people who exercise their right have also fulfilled their responsibility. It does not make Greece a fascist state.

If you exercise your right to fly on a plane then you have the responsibility to not engage in activities that put at risk other passengers. If you ignore all the guidelines introduced to limit the spread of the virus then you knowingly put other passengers at risk. You have not fulfilled your responsibility so you lose your right. If you got on the plane drunk and were refusing to follow the guidelines on the plane like staying in your seat or wearing a seat belt for take off then the crew would put you off the plane because you are endangering other passengers. Do you think they are wrong to do that? Do you think they are infringing your liberty to get drunk and behave however you chose? Not following COVID guidelines is no different except you cannot see it.

The virus spreads through contact between people. The more the contact the more the spread and the more people die. All the guidelines are designed to limit contact by whatever means are available. What is so terrible about that, unless you think you have no responsibility to protect other people?

Warwick

bobscott
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby bobscott » Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:08 am

Like your comments Warwick and endorse all. Particularly liked the example about up-to-date vaccination certificates for kids at school. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Keltz
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Keltz » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:54 pm

Nice one Kamisiana although you missed Mystic Meg from that list. Seems sensible and straightforward what you say Kilkis laws should not be broken, people should act responsibly and be accountable for their actions. Maybe others will take a more holistic approach to the subject.

Kilkis
Posts: 12827
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Kilkis » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:43 am

Scotland has decided to impose 14 days quarantine on people flying into Scotland from Greece starting at 04:00 on Thursday. Wales has made a similar decision, although I think it might only apply to Zante and I haven't seen a specific time/date. As far as I can tell the overall infection rate in Greece is not yet high enough to provoke removing Greece from the exemption list using the general criteria but both Wales and Scotland have experienced outbreaks that trace back to travellers from Greece which provoked their decision.

I'm not sure what "a more holistic approach" means, Keltz? I am as concerned about creeping subversion of privacy and liberty as anybody. My personal opinion is that large parts of the world are moving from democracy towards dictatorship, as predicted to be inescapable by many philosophers. I would include the UK and the USA in that category although they are a long way behind other countries. Every crisis that happens is used to erode liberty/privacy more. In general I am against such erosion of liberty/privacy but how do you weigh that erosion against immediate loss of life?

Both the UK and Australia experienced mass shootings of children. Both the UK and Australia immediately introduced extremely strict restrictions on the owning of guns. People's liberty to own a gun was destroyed but neither the UK nor Australia have experienced mass shootings of children since. The USA has experienced many mass shootings of children but have done nothing to restrict gun ownership. People's liberty to own a gun is preserved and mass shootings continue at regular intervals with massive loss of young lives. Would your "more holistic approach" preserve liberty and accept the deaths or curtail the liberty and prevent the deaths.

Rules on COVID-19 fit into the same category. We can follow the rules and reduce the number of deaths but lose some liberty or not follow the rules, keep our liberty to do whatever we want and accept the increased deaths. Obviously the rules are not set in stone and the nature of the rules determines how much liberty/privacy we lose. A world where COVID-19 was controlled by an effective test-trace-isolate system would be a lot different from a world where COVID-19 was controlled by lockdown. We would still need to obey the rules and it would curtail the liberty of some people, i.e. those who are found to have COVID-19, but only for a period of time, e.g. 14 days. If the system really worked and everybody obeyed the rules everybody else could carry on pretty much as they did before. Things which have marginal impact on our liberty but which do help reduce the spread of the virus could continue, e.g. wearing a mask whenever you are going to mingle closely with other people. Sadly Boris Johnson operates a government in which total energy is put into convincing everybody that what they have done works rather than recognising that it doesn't and putting their energy into finding a better solution.

Warwick

PS For balance, I don't think Greece is doing any better in the area of test-trace-isolate.

Kathleen
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 8:46 pm
Location: North East UK/ex Rethymnon

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Kathleen » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:40 pm

If you exercise your right to fly on a plane then you have the responsibility to not engage in activities that put at risk other passengers. If you ignore all the guidelines introduced to limit the spread of the virus then you knowingly put other passengers at risk. You have not fulfilled your responsibility so you lose your right.


I returned yesterday evening, travelling with Jet2 from Newcastle, following a visit to Rethymnon to close my bank account and settle affairs with my accountant. It was a perfect flight, only half full and with a very well behaved and compliant set of passengers on board.

On my outbound flight I was seated across the aisle from a guy travelling with his wife and two toddlers. He was asked to wear his mask having removed it, being advised it could only be taken off when eating or drinking. As a result, he proceeded to consume ten bottles of wine, and a couple of cans of coke in between visits to the toilets in order not to wear a mask. I felt sorry for his wife.

On speaking to my ex neighbours who travelled out with Ryanair from East Midlands on 18th July I was told they had had their worst flight ever. A group of passengers, apparently, related were extremely abusive to the crew and other passengers seated nearby, using foul language an hanging over the seats in front, whilst refusing to wear facemasks and heavily drinking alcohol they had brought on board. They cleared arrivals like lambs wearing their masks! The good news was, that on their return to UK, two weeks later, on the flight their daughter returned on, they were met by the Police and presumably held to account for their behaviour.

A similar situation apparently arose on an Easyjet flight from Manchester at the weekend. Friends travelling out to their home were seated next to a group of older women, who once again refused to wear masks. All were drinking heavily from alcohol taken on board. The ultimate disrespect exhibited by one of their number, who was seated next to my friends, was when she pinched the stewards bottom! He reacted in a very restrained manner, telling her that her behaviour was completely inappropriate. She eventually realised she had crossed the line and apologised to him.

The common denominator in all of these incidents was drink. The virus will continue to spread simply because people will not conform to sensible advice. The sad part is they have no respect or consideration for anyone. The old saying 'drink in wits out' applies. The responsible few will just have to suffer the consequences in the long term and run the risk of infection

Kathleen

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Kilkis » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:37 pm

It is a criminal offence to serve yourself alcohol on a flight. Technically it is legal to hand your own alcohol to the cabin crew and ask them to serve you but they are not obliged to do so and, given that many are reliant on making sales targets on-board, I am not sure why they would? It would also be a bit foolish to hand them a litre bottle of duty free unless you intend to drink it all during the flight since the cabin crew are obliged to dispose of the contents of all opened bottles at the end of the flight and that would include the one you had given to them. You could buy miniatures before you go to the airport as they will be less than 100ml so could go through security provided you put them in a clear plastic bag. It is also a criminal offence to be drunk on a flight so that rules out drinking the whole litre bottle...probably?

Warwick

PS I'm glad that it sounds like you have everything sorted now, Kathleen.

shine on
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby shine on » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:03 pm

Kathleen wrote:
If you exercise your right to fly on a plane then you have the responsibility to not engage in activities that put at risk other passengers. If you ignore all the guidelines introduced to limit the spread of the virus then you knowingly put other passengers at risk. You have not fulfilled your responsibility so you lose your right.


I returned yesterday evening, travelling with Jet2 from Newcastle, following a visit to Rethymnon to close my bank account and settle affairs with my accountant. It was a perfect flight, only half full and with a very well behaved and compliant set of passengers on board.

On my outbound flight I was seated across the aisle from a guy travelling with his wife and two toddlers. He was asked to wear his mask having removed it, being advised it could only be taken off when eating or drinking. As a result, he proceeded to consume ten bottles of wine, and a couple of cans of coke in between visits to the toilets in order not to wear a mask. I felt sorry for his wife.

On speaking to my ex neighbours who travelled out with Ryanair from East Midlands on 18th July I was told they had had their worst flight ever. A group of passengers, apparently, related were extremely abusive to the crew and other passengers seated nearby, using foul language an hanging over the seats in front, whilst refusing to wear facemasks and heavily drinking alcohol they had brought on board. They cleared arrivals like lambs wearing their masks! The good news was, that on their return to UK, two weeks later, on the flight their daughter returned on, they were met by the Police and presumably held to account for their behaviour.

A similar situation apparently arose on an Easyjet flight from Manchester at the weekend. Friends travelling out to their home were seated next to a group of older women, who once again refused to wear masks. All were drinking heavily from alcohol taken on board. The ultimate disrespect exhibited by one of their number, who was seated next to my friends, was when she pinched the stewards bottom! He reacted in a very restrained manner, telling her that her behaviour was completely inappropriate. She eventually realised she had crossed the line and apologised to him.

The common denominator in all of these incidents was drink. The virus will continue to spread simply because people will not conform to sensible advice. The sad part is they have no respect or consideration for anyone. The old saying 'drink in wits out' applies. The responsible few will just have to suffer the consequences in the long term and run the risk of infection

Kathleen


Boozy Brits, it’s this behaviour that spoils it for everyone. When I drove to Crete, this was in the old world, I was shocked how many people ran to the bar at 7am on the Dover to Calais ferry. By the time we reached Calais, most people were drunk and fighting, including women. These people at first looked like normal folk not yobs, embarrassing. I do have, or did have, a few friends who said that a holiday is all about booze and the more they consume, the more chance of proudly winning the ‘drunk of the year’ trophy, which to my knowledge can never exist - too many drunk participants and the potential drunk, unstable judging. This is not to say that all Brits are drunks, there are just too many for my liking.
Anyway I don’t want to turn this thread into ones experiences of travelling, I just had to say my bit.....I’m off for a drink now :|

Keltz
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Keltz » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:49 pm

shine on wrote:
Kathleen wrote:
If you exercise your right to fly on a plane then you have the responsibility to not engage in activities that put at risk other passengers. If you ignore all the guidelines introduced to limit the spread of the virus then you knowingly put other passengers at risk. You have not fulfilled your responsibility so you lose your right.


I returned yesterday evening, travelling with Jet2 from Newcastle, following a visit to Rethymnon to close my bank account and settle affairs with my accountant. It was a perfect flight, only half full and with a very well behaved and compliant set of passengers on board.

On my outbound flight I was seated across the aisle from a guy travelling with his wife and two toddlers. He was asked to wear his mask having removed it, being advised it could only be taken off when eating or drinking. As a result, he proceeded to consume ten bottles of wine, and a couple of cans of coke in between visits to the toilets in order not to wear a mask. I felt sorry for his wife.

On speaking to my ex neighbours who travelled out with Ryanair from East Midlands on 18th July I was told they had had their worst flight ever. A group of passengers, apparently, related were extremely abusive to the crew and other passengers seated nearby, using foul language an hanging over the seats in front, whilst refusing to wear facemasks and heavily drinking alcohol they had brought on board. They cleared arrivals like lambs wearing their masks! The good news was, that on their return to UK, two weeks later, on the flight their daughter returned on, they were met by the Police and presumably held to account for their behaviour.

A similar situation apparently arose on an Easyjet flight from Manchester at the weekend. Friends travelling out to their home were seated next to a group of older women, who once again refused to wear masks. All were drinking heavily from alcohol taken on board. The ultimate disrespect exhibited by one of their number, who was seated next to my friends, was when she pinched the stewards bottom! He reacted in a very restrained manner, telling her that her behaviour was completely inappropriate. She eventually realised she had crossed the line and apologised to him.

The common denominator in all of these incidents was drink. The virus will continue to spread simply because people will not conform to sensible advice. The sad part is they have no respect or consideration for anyone. The old saying 'drink in wits out' applies. The responsible few will just have to suffer the consequences in the long term and run the risk of infection

Kathleen


Boozy Brits, it’s this behaviour that spoils it for everyone. When I drove to Crete, this was in the old world, I was shocked how many people ran to the bar at 7am on the Dover to Calais ferry. By the time we reached Calais, most people were drunk and fighting, including women. These people at first looked like normal folk not yobs, embarrassing. I do have, or did have, a few friends who said that a holiday is all about booze and the more they consume, the more chance of proudly winning the ‘drunk of the year’ trophy, which to my knowledge can never exist - too many drunk participants and the potential drunk, unstable judging. This is not to say that all Brits are drunks, there are just too many for my liking.
Anyway I don’t want to turn this thread into ones experiences of travelling, I just had to say my bit.....I’m off for a drink now :|


I have driven back and forth to Crete and flown many times yet never experienced any of this sort of behaviour....I must be leading too much of a sheltered life.

On behaviour in this new Covid world we now live in, as Kilkis mentioned Scotland and Wales have impossed quarentine on anyone returning from Greece. Wales rule was with immediate effect, Scotland rule starts at 4am on Thursday. This means that some people will cut short their break and leave today to avoid the 14 day quarentine.

They are acting within the rules, put in place due to an increase in positive tests with people returning from holiday in Greece yet they will not have to quarentine coming from a place the authorities now consider too high a risk and are therefore 'acting responsibly'. Yet from tomorrow anyone doing that will be condemned and castigated as irresponsible. Funny old world we live in.

Rick
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Rick » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:29 pm

Just to put some facts into context....
Wales have not entered Greece under quarantine measures.
However, TUI have cancelled holidays to Argassi (Zante), following the incident of non compliance on a flight from Zante to Cardiff.

Keltz
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Keltz » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:51 pm

Thanks for that Rick. I think the official announcement for Wales specifically mentioned Zante only..

“The flight was already in the air when the Welsh Government made the announcement.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53984808

bobscott
Posts: 2926
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby bobscott » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:01 pm

Keltz wrote:Thanks for that Rick. I think the official announcement for Wales specifically mentioned Zante only..

“The flight was already in the air when the Welsh Government made the announcement.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-53984808


Yes, it is only Zakynthos. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Maud
Posts: 785
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Flying Crete - UK

Postby Maud » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:57 pm



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